Curse

pah01 · Apr 19, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamwind

Yes this is the first example of them doing this, but I am not convinced people are overreacting. The statement in itself is a huge deal. They are basically doing 3 things at once:

1. Sacrificing PvP to prevent PvE backlash
2. Giving up the quest for PvP balance
3. Lying that they are doing it for PvE balance, because Ursan exists

I think my main point was that this update isn't about balance at all, but something else more sad that is disguised as a balance update.

This little post is needed to be on the frontpage. I think this is one of the reasons why about half of my diminished friendslist and guildies are starting to say seriously that they are quitting or at least taking a break.

Joe

Gun Pierson · Apr 19, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

That's rather a pessimistic view, but it's all in the eye of the beholder ofcourse. This is how I see things:

1. PvE doesn't have to sacrifice anymore to make PvP more balanced. While at the same time improving the relation between the PvP and the PvE comunity .

2. I think this will give Anet more freedom to balance PvP without the pressure of the PvE playerbase. So they're actually not giving up the quest for PvP balance, on the contrary.

3. I don't see where they say they do it for PvE balance. Only this quote:
''In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, we will be reverting the changes on May 1st. For future tournaments, we aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all.''

On a final note, they talk about tournaments only at this point.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Apr 19, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

So you vote for removing everything from PvE saying "just use Ursan" for your precious PvP. This is why I hate damn Elitism.
There are two halves to Guild Wars remember that. We need separate skill tracts not more balancing at the cost of PvE. (I am not saying we should forget PvP, just think of the other side, and with the addition of In game prizes PvP is no more serious than PvE, with real money involved I can see concern, now one is just fighting monsters the other is fighting people.)

wren e · Apr 19, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Dreamwaver is correct in pointing out the 3 main points over A-nets statement.

I also have a few facts that I'd like to add as well.

"PvE balance" is more focused on the level design and mobs AI not necessarily the skills used.

Second is that this game is designed as competitive/cooperative game, so any complaints about your solo farming build getting nerfed should not be voiced/listened to, because the game was not designed by nature for this type of play but does reward creativity if a profession/skill combination was found to work function in this fashion until such time that it was righted.

Third, as long as UB is the over-powered skill that it is, any serious balance arguement about "PvE balance" is a joke.

Fourth, by Anet only doing a balance for a tournement and then reverting the changes back to crap means that PvP will not be worth playing and destroying completely what remains left of the serious PvP population. Who is going to stick around if for half the month the game goes back to being crap and having to wait for the short time that a tournement is going on to have a fun, balanced gameplay. Not me, thats for sure.

Fifth, what happens now will reflect in GW2's sales. If Anet screws things up too much, people will not come back to try out GW2 when it comes out no matter how good it might be because of lack of faith in the company.

For those of you that hate any balances at all, I feel sad for you. With all the different profession and skill combinations available to you, the variety that is available to you, you choose only 8 skills to play with and thats it. You have such freedom in this game to easily meet any challenge but you refuse to enjoy this freedom and variety available to you. So a new skill cost you 1k and 1 skill point. Skill points are easy to attain by just playing the game as well as 1k by merchanting items you pick up as you move from on area to the next. Everything, other than the vanity items that are not truely needed, is easily attainable.

If Anet truely cared about "PvE balance" they would adjust the mobs in the areas, tone down UB, and adjust certain classes to have better function in PvE (mesmers and sins), not destroy PvP by making the format crap except for a week or two for tournements and then reverting the changes back to the imbalanced state.

*Gem* · Apr 19, 2008, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I think this should be closed because there is only one direction this thread is going, and we've been there far too many times.

Crom The Pale · Apr 19, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Keep in mind that GW is really just a testing ground at this point for GW2.

Even Anet must have realized that thier method of merging PvP and PvE just doesn't work so they are trying new ideas here that will help them impliment a much better system in GW2, or so I dearly hope

Hexum · Apr 19, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Point is, PVP skill balance should be separate from PVE. I am sure they can come up with a way to balance skills in PVP and leave the same skills in PVE alone(yet not tweaked only for PVP). Which is probably what they will do in GW2.

I don't play PVP, and probably never will so when they adjust skills for PVP it usually messes them up for PVE which I hate. But then again I haven't really looked into all this and I could be way off base. Just my 2 cents.

I just want balance for both sides and not have things sway to one side or the other.

Inger · Apr 19, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

There are those of us who don't use UB... perhaps anet is thinking of us when it says they're reverting the skills for pve balance?

Just a thought...

StormDragonZ · Apr 19, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I am the only person who seems to find capping elite skills, doing missions, finding quests I've missed and completing them, helping others and getting green drops out of random to be fun.

People get bored for one reason and one reason only: The effort to do something is too much, so why bother with it...

Racthoh · Apr 19, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inger

There are those of us who don't use UB... perhaps anet is thinking of us when it says they're reverting the skills for pve balance?

Just a thought...

It's a nice thought but what skill on that list is suddenly making PvE impossible?

Clarissa F · Apr 19, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

ummm.../search? There are tons of threads on balance...PvE, PvP, PvE's affect on PvP, PvP's balancing affecting PvE, and so on.

As far as skill adjustments go, this one was a feather, not a nerfbat.

Deathly_Overlord · Apr 19, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

I love how everyone thinks A-Net is evil and doesnt care about us.

DreamWind · Apr 19, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Thanks Pah01 for pointing out what I said in the other thread.

The thing that is sad is people are continually discussing balance in those threads...which isn't the point of this recent update at all. I think Anet has sent a larger message to all of us...and PvP fans better run away as fast as they can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

1. PvE doesn't have to sacrifice anymore to make PvP more balanced. While at the same time improving the relation between the PvP and the PvE comunity.

The problem is, PvE makes very few sacrifices. All of the recent skill updates have little to no effect on PvE. Get back to me when a thread is made discussing PvE being too easy, and the skills that need to be nerfed to make it harder. How about Ursan? I can basically 90% guarantee that Anet will never touch it. It was essentially MADE for people conquer PvE.

If you think this improves relations between PvE and PvP communitys, I have to laugh. If anything this just makes PvP players resent Anet and the PvE community even more than they already did.

Quote:

2. I think this will give Anet more freedom to balance PvP without the pressure of the PvE playerbase. So they're actually not giving up the quest for PvP balance, on the contrary.

No...it simply means that Anet will NOT balance PvP because they are getting pressure from the PvE playerbase. They have given up their freedom to balance because of the PvE backlash they would receive.

Quote:

3. I don't see where they say they do it for PvE balance. Only this quote:
''In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, we will be reverting the changes on May 1st. For future tournaments, we aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all.''

They aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all. So they can only be doing it for one of two reasons. Either PvE balance, or to make PvE players happy at the expense of PvP. Obviously the PvE balance theory is thrown out the window because of Ursan still existing. The other choice is the only option.

Gun Pierson · Apr 19, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I think Anet has sent a larger message to all of us...and PvP fans better run away as fast as they can.

The problem is, PvE makes very few sacrifices. All of the recent skill updates have little to no effect on PvE. Get back to me when a thread is made discussing PvE being too easy, and the skills that need to be nerfed to make it harder. How about Ursan? I can basically 90% guarantee that Anet will never touch it. It was essentially MADE for people conquer PvE.

If you think this improves relations between PvE and PvP communitys, I have to laugh. If anything this just makes PvP players resent Anet and the PvE community even more than they already did.

No...it simply means that Anet will NOT balance PvP because they are getting pressure from the PvE playerbase. They have given up their freedom to balance because of the PvE backlash they would receive.

They aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all. So they can only be doing it for one of two reasons. Either PvE balance, or to make PvE players happy at the expense of PvP. Obviously the PvE balance theory is thrown out the window because of Ursan still existing. The other choice is the only option.

You sound like a spoiled kid who's world is coming to an end.

The message and the main point is: we don't want to hurt PvE play while balancing PvP for tournaments. Nobody gets hurt, we have a win win situation.

PvP doesn't have to sacrifice jack sh1t. PvE sacrificed over the past 3 years all in the name of balancing PvP. Which I understand but it created tension between the PvP and PvE playerbase. If there's a better way, Anet can go ahead and test stuff imo.

I have to agree on you though that a lot of the PvP players recent PvE and that's exactly why we have those doom posts now. You guys can't stand it PvE won't take collateral damage it seems.

Tamuril elansar · Apr 19, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

agreed with joe.

Anet should never has stated they will delete this update after mAT just for the sake of pve...

what's Anet trying to do? making a full pve game out of GW?

DDL · Apr 19, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Dreamwind: You know what I really, really resent? The use of 'ursan' as a "hah! I win the argument!" tactic in every post you seem to make (I know you're not the only one to use this tactic, but you're here, so hey).

Look: not everyone uses it. Seriously, there are a ton of people who don't even HAVE it, and of those that have it, not all of them use it. Certainly there are relatively few people who use it ALL THE TIME, FOR EVERYTHING.

So, that said, there are hundreds, if not thousands of OTHER skills out there, many of which are useless, underpowered, flawed or otherwise in need of attention. Your argument is simply "Who cares: you idiots all use URSAN!" and then streams of poorly concealed hate.

This is a woefully flawed statement and a poor tactic. Remember, a great many games out there have godmode settings (usually for debug purposes), and you never hear game devs saying "HAH, who cares about the actual game mechanics, the players can just turn on godmode."

This is because it's stupid. The fact that an effective godmode exists in GW does not IN ANY WAY detract from the fact that "non-godmode" stuff is in need of attention. Funnily enough, not everyone LIKES to play in godmode. Some of us like..well, things like "skill", or "playing the way the game was intended to be played".

Now, aside from all that: consider the statement "focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all" and actually look at some of the changes that have been made: loads of stuff that stops guild NPCs from being ganked/buffed to invincibility. Oh, look: Guild NPCs crop up fairly rarely in PvE, don't they? So that's not impacting PvE play at all, and it's not even really changing the functionality of any skills at all.

To be honest, I'm really just astounded by how much completely baseless screaming is going on about what is essentially a fairly ambiguous statement. If they'd said "we're just testing these changes out, and may revert them later" (as they HAVE said in the past) I'll bet there'd be far less whining and raging.

So, to summarise: for god's sake stop being so damn overdramatic, all of you.

By all means prepare your wonderful GW IS DOOOOMED manifestos, but don't actually post them until your OMG WORST FEARS are actually CONFIRMED.

fowlero · Apr 19, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

As much as i am very pessimistic about the future of pvp's balance, i'm going to wait.

Until we see what these "balances with pve in mind" consist of.

Until then i'm withholding judgment.

Avarre · Apr 19, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

PvP is no more serious than PvE, with real money involved I can see concern, now one is just fighting monsters the other is fighting people.)

If you can't see the difference in importance of the two with regards to balance then I'm not sure why you are in this discussion.

JR · Apr 19, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

The message and the main point is: we don't want to hurt PvE play while balancing PvP for tournaments. Nobody gets hurt, we have a win win situation.

PvP tournaments can't take place without a PvP playerbase. If you don't have a balanced game, you wont have a PvP playerbase.

How many people would play Chess if one side got four extra Queens?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

PvP doesn't have to sacrifice jack sh1t. PvE sacrificed over the past 3 years all in the name of balancing PvP. Which I understand but it created tension between the PvP and PvE playerbase. If there's a better way, Anet can go ahead and test stuff imo.

PvE does not rely on balance even nearly as heavily as PvP. At worst a skill balance may make your lives a little less easy, but it isn't going to break the game for you. Bad skill balance in PvP means going into matches and getting destroyed over and over again by people playing some lame gimmick. That said, I agree that something needs to be different in future to prevent this conflict arising.

Making balance changes just to revert them later is pointless. Yes it would be nice to have a mAT not ruled by gimmicks for once, but that is hardly a big deal. The bigger picture of actually improving the game involves lasting changes.

DDL · Apr 19, 2008, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Making balance changes just to revert them later is pointless.

Because testing stuff without actually committing yourself is NEVER worthwhile, right?

If the changes work, they'll probably be implemented permanently at some point in future. If they don't they won't. if they sort of work, they'll sort of be implemented.

The point is they get to SEE what effect these changes have without actually committing to a permanent change, which is what they should be doing all the time, to be honest.